Salvation is everything. It is the most important thing. Whether you are saved or not will determine where you spend eternity. It also determines how you will live your life here on earth. It determines whether you have any genuine hope or not. It determines whether we want truth or not. It gives us the ability to love one another. It changes us. Salvation is all about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, God in the flesh, dying, and raising from the dead to save us from our sins and giving us eternal life. The offer of salvation is available to everyone, it is a free gift. All you have to do is take it. For God so loved the world.
We have a problem. All humans have the same problem. That problem is sin. It is the explanation for why we die, why the world is like it is, why there is death, pain, sorrow, sickness, sadness, suffering. Adam sinned in the garden of Eden. Mankind has been plunged into a history of sin and slavery to Satan. The Bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The Bible says there is none righteous, no not one. We have all broken God’s law, and we all stand guilty before God. Although God is love, God is first and foremost, holy. God’s perfect holiness demands payment and atonement for sin. Sin must be judged. Sin must be paid for. Sin must be cleansed. We cannot stand before God in our sin. We cannot approach him as sinners. God is the Creator and Judge of the world, and his judgements are true and righteous, and man cannot change, twist or pervert them. What He says goes. He has the authority, power and right to judge his creation.
The sentence for the sin of breaking God’s law is eternal death, in hell and then the lake of fire. When man sinned in the garden of Eden, man died spiritually. Satan became our master, our spiritual father. The Bible says we are dead in trespasses and sins, we are alienated from God by our sin, we are standing afar off because of our sin. We sin because we are sinners by nature. We cannot help it, we cannot but sin. Any and every person that is not saved has God’s wrath abiding on him/her. Anyone who is not saved goes to hell when they die. All lost people are one heartbeat away from that eternal, permanent reality. The message is as simple and blunt as that. There is nothing we can do about our condition ourselves, we are guilty sinners, helpless to save ourselves, just as the heavy axehead lay lost at the bottom of the murky, muddy Jordan river in Elisha’s day.
However, we have a Saviour, who can save us from the penalty, power and presence of sin. He can give us life, and give it more abundantly. God through his great love and mercy has provided a way out for us though his Son Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is our salvation. He is God’s provision for our sins. There is no salvation in any other. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father but by Him. The Bible declares Jesus to be God the Father’s only begotten Son, the perfect, sinless Son of God, the Lamb of God provided by God for us. As the Lamb of God, Jesus took the sins of the world on himself. God demands payment for sin, Jesus is our payment for our sins. We are redeemed through his blood, his perfect, sinless blood which was shed at Calvary for us. The Bible is clear that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. We can never be good enough to qualify for heaven of ourselves, we can never pay our sins, that’s why people who aren’t saved never get out of hell, it is an unplayable debt that we owe. Lost people bear the eternal wrath of God. The Bible asks, Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Jesus said, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. This needn’t be so. Jesus bore the wrath of God which should have been against us on the cross. Jesus died a sacrificial, substitutionary death on the cross for the sins of the whole world. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your substitute you will be saved. The gospel is a gospel of substitution, the innocent – Jesus, for the guilty – us.
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will be saved. That is the gospel. Jesus died, was buried and arose for us. There is nothing we did or could do. We are saved by grace through faith. All he requires of us is to place our faith in him and he will save us. He will save anyone who calls upon him. Jesus said that anyone that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jesus said noone is able to pluck out of his hand. When we are saved, we are sealed, we have eternal security, we have eternal life. We can be saved and know it. We don’t need to live in doubt. Now are we the sons of God.
Jesus arose from the dead on the third day because it was not possible that death and hell could hold him. He was perfectly innocent. He did no evil, he did no wrong. He was seen, heard, physically touched after his resurrection. The Bible says that we have not followed cunningly devised fables. The Bible is our more sure word of prophecy. Don’t trust people, trust God. The Bible is a book that bears witness of Jesus Christ, from start to finish, Genesis to Revelation. Creation bears witness of him. Our conscience bears witness of him. The law bears witness of him. The prophets bear witness. The Bible says that Jesus lights every man that comes into the world. We are without excuse. The gospel is simple. Our only responsibility is to place our faith and trust in Him. Jesus is right now seated at the right hand of God the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us. He has promised to receive us to himself. He is also coming back to earth to reign, and as Job said, in the latter day he will stand upon the earth. Only then will the world experience true peace under the rule of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We will all ultimately stand before Christ. We can stand before him in very different settings – either saved or lost, cleared or guilty. The Bible says that Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. If you believe on Him you are not condemned, true believers have nothing to fear. You can believe right now, right where you are. Receive the free gift of eternal life if you want it, if you see a need for it. Only God can make you see the need to be saved. Job 35 says What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin? It is up to the Holy Spirit to work in each person’s heart individually, I cannot be saved for you, all I can do you is tell you what God says in his Word. All it takes is repentance and faith toward God. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The Bible says now is the accepted time. Today is the day of salvation. Jesus said, Have faith in God.
Verses to read: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Ephesians 2:8,9, John 3:16, Titus 3:5-7
Chapters to read: Isaiah 53
Books to read: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Romans
Hi there, I left a comment the otherday seeing if you could email me. If you feel lead to, please email me ASAP
Hi David John, thanks for your comment, but I prefer to use here as the forum for a dialogue. All I really have to say is trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour and if you do, read the Bible and obey it 🙂
Good morning, my name is Robin. I have Multiple Sclerosis. We have a walk every year for fundraising for research to help find a cure for MS. God has blessed me with my own team for the walk in April 2021.I was diagnosed in 2013 with MS. Every year I have been raising money to donate to walking for a cure. I was always on another team. I like to say GOD showed up and showed out! I had the yard sale on a Saturday from 7 to 1.I was so overwhelmed we raised 1,140.00 in 6 hours!!! God is good all the time! All the time God is good! I am putting this on here because I need a name for my team and scripture to back it up. I came up with team HEAVEN BOUND I need scripture to back it up. Or if anyone has suggestions about a team name and scripture please let me know. I just want my t-shirts to glorify God! And give him all the praise and Glory! Thank you and have a blessed day!
Wondering, what about #FaithWalk – since we can’t please God without having Faith in Him, that He is, and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Salvation is not gained by a decision on man’s part:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,(even) to them that believe on his name: Which were BORN, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but OF GOD. John 1:12-13 So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH nor of him that runneth but OF GOD THAT SHOWETH MERCY Romans 9:16 Therefore said I unto you that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER-John 6:65 But OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus-1 Corinthians 1:30 not of one’s own decision.
You cannot “get” born again or “get” saved any more than you can “get” born naturally the first time. The new birth is by God’s will, not man’s will-OF HIS OWN WILL BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH-James 1:18 Man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS-Ephesians 2:1, 5. Dead people cannot choose life-they must be made alive before they can do anything. Man will never choose Christ of his own volition-And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and MEN LOVED DARKNESS rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil HATETH THE LIGHT, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved John 3:19-20 Whoso committeth sin is the SERVANT OF SIN-John 8:34 there is no such thing as free will. Man’s will is bound by sin-John 8:34 and cannot and will not choose Christ on his own-see above. Faith is the work of God, not the work of man-John 6:29 This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent. Faith is the EVIDENCE of salvation, not the cause. Faith does not get one saved, it is the evidence that one is ALREADY saved-Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH (not will have, but already has) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but IS PASSED (already) from death unto life. John 5:24 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, AND AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED Acts 13:48 God’s people are not ordained to eternal life because they believe, they believe because they were ordained to eternal life. God chooses who will be saved, not man-But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, WHEREUNTO HE CALLED YOU by our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God only saves those whom he has predestinated to save-For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate (to be) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE, THEM he also called, and whom he called, THEM he also justified, and whom he justified, THEM he also glorified Romans 8:29-30 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will (have mercy), and whom he will he hardeneth Romans 9:18 Salvation is not a potential for all mankind, it is actual and accomplished for all of God’s elect people-For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified Hebrews 10:14 Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS-Matthew 1:21 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were afar off ARE MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST-Ephesians 2:13 not made nigh by “accepting” Christ. Justified by HIS BLOOD-Romans 5:9 not by one’s faith RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON-Romans 5:10 not by “accepting” Christ. Jesus died only for his elect people-FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,WHO DIED FOR US (those appointed to salvation in the previous verse) THAT WHETHER WE WAKE OR SLEEP, WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 Christ loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for it Ephesians 5:25 the CHURCH OF GOD, which he HATH PURCHASED with his own blood Acts 20:28 Not potentially but ACTUALLY. Glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee, as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM John 17:1-2 And they sang a new song saying Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof, for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred and tongue and people and nation Revelation 5:9 Only the elect of God have been redeemed OUT OF mankind. Baptist churches do NOT teach the truth of the Bible.
With that wall of text lacking any formatting, it really is impossible to decipher how you’re trying to back up your assertion that “salvation is not gained by a decision on man’s part”.
Salvation is absolutely a decision on man’s part, but of course, God initiates it and it’s by his grace… but we can accept or reject it. I made a decision to be saved when the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin, God gave me the grace to do so, but I did make the decision, it wasn’t God making the decision for me that I had no say in.
We are all called and chosen and predestinated and elect and every other good thing in Christ Jesus, but that’s the key… IN CHRIST. God extends all the blessings and benefits to man in his Son Jesus Christ, whom he has set before all of us to look and live.
God gave us the ability to make choices, that’s what’s special about mankind amongst several other things, and if they weren’t choices we couldn’t be held guilty seeing as we had no say in the matter. If God forced you never to be saved, how could he fairly condemn you for that? We are not going to be held guilty for decisions that God made for us, but decisions that we made to believe and trust and obey, or to disobey… and that’s what the whole Bible is about, men making choices.
Revelation 22:17 “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
We are predestined based on his foreknowledge. Yes God knows who will be saved but he gives everybody the opportunity to be saved and wants/wills all to be saved/justified/quickened/
God wills all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. He wills all men to come to repentance. He gives us Free Will and he draws all men unto himself. Calvinism is complete heresy. All means all and that’s all it means.
Whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
In John 6 he said those that come to Christ he will in no wise cast out.
1st Corinthians 15: 1-4
Ephesians 2: 8-10.
Romans 10: 9- 13
Romans 3: 22-28
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Thanks for the comment Josh and Amen!
God does not love every human being Thou hatest all workers of iniquity-Psalm 5:5 the wicked and him that loveth violence God’s soul hateth-Psalm 11:5 world in John 3:16 means all men without distinction not all men without exception-see Romans 11:12 & 15 world equals Gentiles and not just Jews, and does not mean every human being without exception. Fundamental Baptist churches teach a false gospel that is not what the scriptures declare.
Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
If he does not love every human being, then he does not love any human being… because we are all wicked sinners who need to be saved.
He extends and commends his love in the person of Jesus Christ, his be”loved” Son, to all men, who are all wicked sinners, equally.
We were all enemies of God because of our sin, but God has provided reconciliation for every man through Christ “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ…” and in so doing proves his love to every human being.
So you’ve got your doctrine supremely messed up Mark, but thanks for your comment nonetheless.
Romans 5:8 God commendeth his love toward US, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US. Question-who is the US? To whom is Paul speaking? The answer is in the CONTEXT, both the immediate context of the chapter plus the wider context of the book of Romans and also the wider context of the New Testament. Scripture passages must always be understood IN CONTEXT. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul is writing to believers who are justified by Christ and have peace with God. The US does not refer to all of mankind but to believers who have been foreknown and predestinated and chosen to salvation-Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5. That is whom Paul is writing to. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Once again, who is the US in the passage? Answer: the apostles plus the believers to whom they are writing; i.e. GOD’S ELECT. The verse proves too much, for it plainly says that God was reconciling the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, not imputing their trespasses unto them. I have previously shown what world means in Romans 11:12. If world here in 2 Corinthians 5 means all human beings then according to the passage God has reconciled every human being to himself and not counted their trespasses against them which means no one goes to hell according to Revelation 20:11-15 and many other passages including the very words of Jesus in Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50, 25:41 and Mark 9:43-48 and many other passages. World means all men without distinction and not all men without exception. The same goes for John 1:29. If world there means every human being then Christ TAKETH AWAY their sin, which means no one can be judged or sent to everlasting punishment because their sins are taken away. That is what the VERSE SAYS. I have given John 1:13 and you have ignored it-born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God Do you not SEE THE WORDS sir? BORN NOT OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN. The new birth is by the sovereign grace of God and is not the result of man’s choice or decision-John 5:21 quickeneth whom HE WILL, not whom we will. Romans 9:16-election to everlasting life (see context of Romans 9:1-24) is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH BUT OF GOD THAT SHOWETH MERCY. Exactly which of these words is unclear to you sir? I have previously given 1 Cor. 1:30 OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus-not of yourself. What part of this is not clear? I have also previously given Matthew 1:21, John 6:65, John 17:1-2, Ephesians 2: 1 & 5, John 3:19-20, 5:24, 6:29, 8:34, Acts 13:48, 20:28, Romans 5:9-10, 8:29-30, Ephesians 5:25, 1 Thess. 5:9-10, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, James 1:18, Rev. 5:9 and you have passed right over them. Exactly which of these passages are unclear to you? Do you not SEE THE WORDS? God gives eternal life to those who have been given to Christ by the Father-compare John 17:2 with John 6:37 & 39. Jesus died for his sheep-John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. Fourteen verses later in the same chapter in John 10:26 he tells the Pharisees ye believe not BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP. One more time: the good shepherd giveth his life FOR THE SHEEP but the pharisees are NOT OF HIS SHEEP. Therefore he did not die for all men but only for his sheep. This is what THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE SAY. Revelation 22:17-whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. This verse is not a universal offer of salvation to all of mankind as most people think. Again, look at the WORDS-whosoever WILL. There is a qualifier here in plain sight. It does not speak to whosoever without exception but to whosoever WILL. Comparing John 1:13 and 3:19-20 which I have already given, who is going to will? The answer is NOBODY of their own volition. John 6:44 and 65 plainly declare that NO man can or will come to Christ except it were given unto him by the Father. So again who is going to will? Answer: the elect, those given to Christ by the Father; those to whom it is given to come to Christ. Thus Revelation 22:17 is a call to God’s elect, not a universal offer of potential salvation to all men, neither is 2 Peter 3:9-God is long-suffering to US-WARD, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Longsuffering toward who? Toward the US-WARD, that is to believers, not willing that any of the elect believers should perish. Same case with 1 Timothy 2:4-all men must be understood IN CONTEXT with verse 1 which is before it, which is shown in verse 2 to be all kinds of men or all classes of men. God will have all kinds of men to be saved, not every human being without exception. I have given Psalm 5:5 and 11:5 which plainly state that God does not love all men. Exactly what part of these verses is unclear? Did God love all the people whom he destroyed in the flood? Did God love the Canaanites whom he clearly instructed Joshua to have no mercy upon?-Deuteronomy 7:1-6, Joshua 11:20. Did God love Esau? Romans 9:13. Did God love the Amalekites and their king Agag, whom Samuel hewed in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal because Saul was supposed to do it as per God’s instructions? 1 Samuel 15. Did God love Ben-Hadad, whom God appointed to utter destruction and Ahab let him go? 1 Kings 20:42. Did God love Judas Iscariot?-John 17:12. Many more examples could be given. I have given you the WORDS of GOD and they seem to just bounce right off of you. You do not SEE the WORDS of scripture. It is not I who have messed up doctrine as you say; it is you who cannot see or hear the words of God and what they truly say. Therefore John 8:47 speaks to you: He that is of God HEARETH GOD’S WORDS; ye therefore HEAR NOT BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD.
You’re miles off Mark. Yes you are welcome to believe and interpret scripture however you want, but just don’t bring it here.
You said initially “God does not love every human being”… and yet here the Bible teaches that God loved us while we were yet sinners. We are all sinners. So even though the “us” is believers, when God died for us, it was when we were unbelievers and enemies of God. Jesus “a friend of publicans and sinners” they said.
And when the Bible says he tasted death for “every” man and who will have “all men to be saved” and “not willing that any should perish”… that’s what it means. It is self explanatory, and doesn’t need your clarification. According to your definition of election, why would he be “not willing that any should perish” if they can not and never will perish because they’re elect? Far out.
Elect doesn’t mean that God creates people to save and people to damn. Election isn’t God creating most of the humans on the planet to go to hell and they can’t do anything about it and he won’t do anything about it. God says Christ is “my elect” and what makes us elect is believing on him. God gives the grace to every man to do so, and he lets man make some decisions for what man will be held accountable. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are elect. It’s not you believe in Jesus Christ because God’s elected you to do so.
That’s the end of it, thank you.
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed out report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, because that Isaiah said again, HE HATH BLINDED THEIR EYES, AND HARDENED THEIR HEART, THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE WITH (THEIR) EYES, NOR UNDERSTAND WITH (THEIR) HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM John 12:37-40
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 2 Thess. 2:10-12
Unto you therefore which believe (he is) precious; but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, (EVEN TO THEM) WHICH STUMBLE AT THE WORD, BEING DISOBEDIENT, WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED 1 Peter 2:7-8
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, AND BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION. And MANY SHALL FOLLOW THEIR PERNICIOUS WAYS, by reason of whom THE WAY OF TRUTH SHALL BE EVIL SPOKEN OF. 2 Peter 2:1-2 But these, as natural brute beasts, MADE TO BE TAKEN AND DESTROYED, SPEAK EVIL OF THE THINGS THAT THEY UNDERSTAND NOT, and SHALL UTTERLY PERISH IN THEIR OWN CORRUPTION 2 Peter 2:12
For there are certain men crept in unawares, WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ Jude 4
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah,and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE Jude 7
But the fearful, AND UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death Revelation 21:8
Yes sir, it is indeed over. May God peradventure give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, that you may recover yourself out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Goodbye
I’m not disagreeing with the Bible you quoted, just your spin on it. Big difference.
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to save me from my sins, and he has, so to talk about perishing and destruction and condemnation and wish and sentence it on a Christian who Jesus Christ died for and saved just because they don’t submit to your unbalanced personal doctrine is absurd.
You really are marginalizing the cross of Jesus Christ, and the power of the gospel. Do you even bother telling anyone the gospel? Or is that a waste of time seeing as nobody else is super special elect like you?
And if salvation is based upon God electing who is saved and not beforehand, why get angry with someone who God hasn’t elected? In other words, if it’s not given them to be saved and understand, then God has decided they can’t, rather than they decided they won’t, which makes your position not just unBiblical, but also just unreasonable and unjust. The grace of God has appeared to all men, the entire Bible is written so anyone can believe and be saved, just they have to use the door… Jesus Christ, who is the elect of God.
Pardon, but didn’t you say “That’s the end of it, thank you?” So apparently it’s not-well, all right then-first of all I don’t put a “spin” on scripture as you say, I take it at face value and I interpret scripture by scripture, not by my own reasoning. The scriptures are the very words of God, so to contradict what they say is to contradict GOD ALMIGHTY. When I see for example “born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God-John 1:13-I take it to mean exactly what it says-that the new birth is not the result of man’s will or decision, because that is exactly what it SAYS. When I see for example that God hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will he hardeneth-Romans 9:18-that is exactly what it means because that is exactly what it SAYS. God does not have mercy on every human being. Did he have mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah? 2 Peter 2:6. What does Jude say? Jude verse 7-you know the answer, you just won’t accept it. Did God send the angels into Sodom to evangelize them first? Nope. Did God have mercy on Pharaoh and the Egyptians? Nope-he hardened Pharaoh’s heart-Exodus 7:3-5 which Paul shows in Romans 9, and then he drowned them all in the Red Sea. Did God love the 185,000 Assyrians that he killed?-Isaiah 37:36. Did he love the 100 soldiers that Elijah called fire down upon and just killed? Did God love Nadab and Abihu who offered strange fire before the LORD and he killed them? Did God love the man who brought the Midianite woman into the camp? Nope-Phineas killed them both, and God said he hath wrought my judgment. Did God love Hophni and Phineas, the wicked sons of Eli? Nope-1 Samuel 2:27-36 Did God love Pontius Pilate? Did Jesus share the gospel with him? Nope.This is what the Bible SAYS, but you won’t accept it-you just keep on defending your “God loves everyone” doctrine in direct opposition to the clear statements of scripture such as Psalm 5:5, 11:5, and 9:17 and many many others that I could keep giving but we would be here all day. It is not I who am putting a spin on scripture as you say, it is you who are imposing your unbiblical system on it rather than being willing to accept what it says at face value, because that contradicts your precious free will decisional salvation doctrine of “God loves everyone Jesus died for everyone potentially but actually saved no one, everyone deserves a chance to be saved and I can get me saved by accepting Christ”. Really? What we all DESERVE is to GO STRAIGHT TO HELL. God does not OWE ANYONE ANYTHING-certainly not any chance to be saved. The miracle is that he has mercy on anyone at all, because no one deserves anything other than eternal judgment.
Secondly, you say that I am “marginalizing the cross and the power of the gospel”. Is it not rather you with your free will decisional doctrine which marginalizes the cross? You believe that Christ died POTENTIALLY for everyone but ACTUALLY SAVED NO ONE, and that every person must make the choice to “accept” Christ in order to be saved. Do you not see that this is actually you saving yourself by your decision?? Your christ is unable/unwilling to save anyone without their permission and consent, so he stands at the door of each person’s heart knocking and waiting for their decision and hoping that they will exercise their sovereign human free will and save themselves by “accepting” him. Can you not see that you have made faith into a work of man rather than the work of God by sovereign grace as the scriptures plainly declare?-John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Phillipians 1:29. Can you not see that you are adding your human work of “accepting” Christ to salvation and thus making one’s eternal destiny to depend on the faulty will of man instead of upon the sovereign grace of God? Your gospel is not the gospel of scripture, it is “Jesus and me are going to get me saved”. Salvation is not a cooperative effort. Grace plus works equals works-Romans 11:6. Anytime that ANY human element is injected into salvation it then becomes salvation by human achievement, i.e. WORKS. In order for salvation to be entirely of grace it must be ENTIRELY OF GOD, from start to finish, from eternity past to eternity future, and this is exactly what Romans 8:29-30 clearly shows-foreknown-predestinated-called-justified-glorified. Unbreakable chain. God does it all. Who are the glorified? Only them that are the justified. Who are the justified? Only them that are the called. Who are the called? Only them that are the predestinated. Who are the predestinated? Only them that are foreknown by God (by the way, foreknown means foreloved-known in the relational sense, not the cognitive sense-compare Jeremiah 1:5.) So only the foreknown and predestinated and called and justified and glorified are the ones who will be saved. I gave this text of Romans 8:29-30 earlier and you just glossed right over it. Salvation is not a potential as in your belief system, it is declared in scripture to be FINISHED ACTUAL AND ACCOMPLISHED for all of God’s people. Isaiah 53:11-by his knowledge shall my righteous servant JUSTIFY many, for he SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES. Everyone whose iniquities Christ bore IS JUSTIFIED by Christ. That is what the verse SAYS. So then if he bore the sins of every human being then every human being IS JUSTIFIED and then there is NO hell or judgment for ANYONE. The verse does not allow for your potential atonement of Jesus dying for everyone but actually saving no one. That idea is nothing short of blasphemy and a direct contradiction to what the scriptures plainly say. John 1:29-Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world. If world is every human being then their sins ARE TAKEN AWAY and no one goes to hell. The verse does not allow for your potential atonement of Christ dying for everyone but actually saving no one. 1 John 2:2-he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Once again, if world here is every human being who ever lived then according to the verse THEIR SINS ARE PROPITIATED-no one goes to hell and you have universal salvation. Romans 5:9-justified by his blood-again, if his blood was shed for every human being then according to the verse every human being IS JUSTIFIED-the verse does not allow for your potential atonement. Romans 5:10-reconciled to God by the death of his Son- according to the verse, everyone that Jesus died for IS RECONCILED, because the death of his Son ACTUALLY RECONCILED the people for whom he died according to the verse. The verse is not potential and does not allow for your potential atonement view. Your potential atonement view does not stand up to plain scripture. How many more verses do you need? The testimony of scripture is clear.
When I see that He said “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd giveth his life FOR THE SHEEP” John 10:11, and then 16 verses later he says to the Pharisees “ye believe not because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP” then I take the scriptures at face value, because that is exactly what they SAY. The verses are all point blank and period, and could not be any clearer.
Thirdly, the charge that you make against me of accusing me of thinking that I am “super special elect” is completely false, unfair, unfounded and unwarranted. I say of myself what Paul said-by the grace of God I am what I am. Were it not for his sovereign mercy and grace I would end up burning and screaming in hell for all eternity, because that is what I deserve, seven times over. I did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be saved-God the Father chose me to salvation in eternity past and gave me to his Son-Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9, John 6:37, 17:2, 6,9, 11-12; God the Son took my sins to the cross 2000 years ago at Calvary and washed them ALL away-not potentially but ACTUALLY-Acts 20:28, Romans 5:9-10, Ephesians 2:13-16, Colossians 1:21-22, Hebrews 9:28, 10:14. He DEALT with them-ALL of them-that day, once and for all; and God the Holy Spirit regenerated me and called me in 1990 by the preaching of his word, and caused me to understand what Christ has done for me and for all of his people. I had absolutely NOTHING to do with my salvation. He quickened me and gave me life-John 5:21. He didn’t ask me if I wanted to be saved. He didn’t wait for me to make a “decision” as if my pathetic decision could somehow activate his blood shed at Calvary and procure salvation for me. I have already shown previously that man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS-Ephesians 2:1 & 5-yet you are not willing to accept this. It plainly SAYS what it SAYS. A dead person cannot choose to be made alive. Did Lazarus choose to be brought back by Jesus? John 11 Did Lazarus ask Jesus to bring him back? You know the answer. Although it is a literal story it is also a picture of salvation. If I go stand in a graveyard in the middle of the night and yell “free life!! Come and get it!! All you have to do is say yes!! Come and get it!!” How many responses will I get? DEAD MEANS DEAD! Lost people CANNOT CHOOSE salvation-they are spiritually DEAD. John 3:19-20, 6:44 and 6:65 all make it absolutely clear that NO ONE will ever come to Christ on their own-they are DEAD. They are both unable and completely unwilling to choose Christ or come to Christ. Their carnal mind is ENMITY AGAINST GOD-Romans 8:7-NOT subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE. Do you not see what the words say? Lost man must be made alive before he can repent or believe or anything else. Jesus said whoso committeth sin is the servant of sin-John 8:34. Sinners cannot do anything but sin-they are slaves to sin. Their will is bound by sin. They have no will toward God-they cannot and will not choose Christ no matter what. God must sovereignly regenerate them before anything else can occur, and the scripture declares that the Son QUICKENETH WHOM HE WILL-John 5:21. It is GOD”S DECISION whom he makes alive, not man’s decision. Why is this unclear to you? Because it goes against your free will decisional false gospel. Yet you accuse me of putting my own spin on the scriptures when I am simply declaring what the scriptures plainly declare. It seems rather that the problem here is that you are unable/unwilling to see what the scriptures plainly say and to accept it, because as I said earlier, that would destroy your free will decisional belief system and cause its walls to come tumbling down, and I have clearly shown from the scriptures that this is the case-the word of God destroys your free will belief system. Your free will belief system does not stand up to scripture-it is another gospel which is under the anathema of Galatians 1:8-9 plus it would give the believer a reason to boast in heaven-“I GOT ME HERE because I got saved by exercising MY free will to believe”. Nope-God will have none of that-Ephesians 2:9. I am not saved by faith, I am saved BY CHRIST. You are simply unwilling to accept the plain testimony of scripture. The gospel is not an offer of salvation to all mankind-God does not offer salvation to anyone and he never has. The true gospel of scripture is simply the declaration and proclamation of the finished work of Jesus Christ for his people, and God causes his elect to believe it.
Finally, as for your argument in your final paragraph about salvation based on God’s sovereign election being unbiblical, unreasonable and unjust as you say, Romans 9:1-26 has already answered these objections. God knew that these carnal objections would come up so he caused the apostle Paul to write so as to deal with them in advance. If you read the chapter carefully it shows that the issue at hand is who is merely a natural physical descendant of Abraham versus who is a truly elect child of God-9:8, 9:26. This is not some election to service as many commentators claim; the passage is about God’s sovereign election to everlasting life. It clearly says Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated-9:13, Malachi 1:2-3. You will say that’s not fair-9:14.The scriptures answer-For he saith to Moses I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy-9:15, Exodus 33:19. 9:16-so then (it is) NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH-salvation is not by man’s will-NEITHER OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, but OF GOD THAT SHOWETH MERCY. You will say well then how can God hold someone responsible if he has already ordained who will be saved and lost?-9:19 Scripture gives the answer-Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the POTTER POWER OVER THE CLAY, OF THE SAME LUMP TO MAKE ONE VESSEL UNTO HONOUR, AND ANOTHER UNTO DISHONOUR? (What) if God, willing to show (his) wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED TO DESTRUCTION, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the VESSELS OF MERCY, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY, EVEN US WHOM HE HATH CALLED, NOT OF THE JEWS ONLY, BUT ALSO OF THE GENTILES? 9:20-24. So the scriptures have already answered you.
So far, Joseph, at every point I have continued to answer you with the clear word of God, and every time you have countered the word of God and downplayed or ignored what the scriptures plainly say in favor of your unbiblical free will decisional man cooperates with God synergistic false potential salvation belief system which is diametrically opposed to what the scriptures plainly say. There is nowhere else to go with you here since you have plainly showed that you are not willing to accept the words of God. You just keep on resisting the truth and answering back with human reasoning based on your free will belief system which does not stand up to the clear statements of the word of God as I have thus far proven. If you will not accept what God clearly says then it is to him that you must give account one day and neither I nor anyone else can help you. May God have mercy on your soul and open your eyes to the Bible truth. Mark
It’s not I don’t understand the points you are making, I just disagree with them. Because it is not what the Bible teaches. You try to, but cannot work around verses like 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
That verse is self explanatory. Words like “any” and “all” are in there… and they mean just that. Salvation is for anyone and available to everyone. Your theology is ridiculous. Yes, the Bible does teach that salvation is of the Lord… and it is. And salvation necessitates the Holy Spirit reproving, convicting and drawing us to God through Christ… but that doesn’t mean we can’t resist the Holy Spirit. Because many can and do. Yes we need grace to be saved… but we have that grace, everyone does. Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,” If people don’t get saved it won’t be because they weren’t given grace to be saved, but because they failed of the grace of God like Esau. God didn’t hate Esau because he created someone to hate, look at the man Esau was, that’s why God hated him.
Its quite incredible that you’re trying to correct me when your doctrine is so far off base. What about Nineveh? God said he was going to destroy Nineveh, and then he changed his mind when they repented. Did he lie to them when he sent Jonah to preach to them? No he didn’t. He would’ve destroyed Nineveh, but he had mercy on them when they repented.
And God did show mercy to Pharaoh, just Pharaoh rejected God’s mercy. If you look at the dialogue between Moses and Pharaoh, that is abundantly clear. God was incredibly merciful to Pharaoh. If Pharaoh had believed or even just obeyed God’s word, he wouldn’t have ended up like he did. After every plague, mercifully he was given another chance, and then another, and then another. That God’s word hardened Pharaoh’s heart wasn’t because he was predestined to go to hell.
But let’s just finish with the phrase “all men”… because below I ‘ve quoted a few scriptures that include the phrase “all men”. Guess what, all men means all men. Webster’s defines “all” as “every one” and “the whole quantity”. Every single person has had their salvation provided for, and they are called to be saved, that’s why we go out and tell them the gospel. What they do with it, how they receive it, is up to them. Some will believe, and some will not. That God knows how they will respond does not mean God determines how they respond or prevents them from responding favourably.
1 Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 4:10 “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”
Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
Acts 17:30 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”
All men, all men, all men, all men, all men. Looks the gospel is for all men, because all men can be saved. You really are miles off. Statements like “It is GOD”S DECISION whom he makes alive, not man’s decision” show this abundantly. It’s God’s decision to make us alive, and it’s God’s decision how we are made alive, and God in his grace offers the way of life to every man through his Son. It’s man’s decision to accept how God has decided to make us alive, that’s why we believe in Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus Christ, he will make you alive. So you do not understand the doctrines of election, predestination, sovereignty of God… and really the gospel of Jesus Christ, at all.
Well Joseph, to be honest there is really no point in continuing this debate. I hate debating anyway. I have already diligently explained the Bible truth and you continue to reject it in favor of your false gospel of decisional free will which makes man his own savior. I have already explained what all men means. I have already explained 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 and many other passages and given sound exposition of all of them, comparing scripture with scripture and thus allowing the words of God to speak for themselves, and you have disregarded all of it. I started this thread only to see if maybe perhaps you might just be willing to listen to the truth of scripture, but, alas-you are not willing to even consider it, and in fact call it “ridiculous”-your word. I have shown concretely and in excruciating detail from the scriptures that your position does not stand up to scripture, and you have rejected what the scriptures plainly say in favor of your false free will God-loves-everyone-Christ-died-for-everyone-but-actually-saved-no-one-and-I-am-saved-by-my-own-decision gospel. You are wresting 2 Peter 3:9 and lifting it OUT OF CONTEXT, and also 1 Timothy 2:4. You are misusing 1 Timothy 4:10 OUT OF CONTEXT-compare 2 Corinthians 1:10 and Psalm 107 and the real meaning becomes quite clear. Proponents of your view also misuse John 12:32 out of context while ignoring the rest of the chapter which shows the real meaning-12:20 is the key. All men without distinction, NOT all men without exception; Gentiles and not just Jews only. You are misusing Titus 2:11 OUT OF CONTEXT-look at the next 3 verses after it through to 2:14 and the real meaning is clear. Titus 2:14 PROVES that Christ did not die for all of humanity, but rather to PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF A PECULIAR PEOPLE-compare 1 Peter 2:9. 1 Peter 1:2 PROVES the same thing-ELECT…UNTO THE SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. You are misusing Romans 5:18 OUT OF CONTEXT-look at the next verse, 5:19. You lifted Hebrews 2:9 OUT OF CONTEXT earlier in this thread-look at the rest of Hebrews chapter 2 to the end of the chapter in 2:18 and it becomes clear what “every man” means-MANY SONS-verse 10, CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME-verse 13, HIS BRETHREN-verse 17-NOT every human being. Your entire view is built upon verses misused and out of context and your own fallen reasoning, and like I said, your position is that it is your decision to “accept” Christ that saves instead of the finished work of the cross (good luck with that on judgment day), which is nothing but a false gospel of “salvation” which is dependent on yourself instead of on Christ-it is “I got me saved by my decision”-good luck with that on judgment day. It is a lie, it comes from the father of lies-John 8:44, and God has cursed it-Galatians 1:8-9, yet you continue to uphold it and teach it publicly. The scriptures have proven you wrong; they testify against you, but you reject them and won’t accept what they say. You will not hear the word of the Lord.
lo, they have REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:9
Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed-Proverbs 13:13
He that rejecteth me, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. John 12:48
2 Peter 3:9 and many other verses like it do not require you to explain it. They are self explanatory. You have to explain away “all men” to make your theology work. But Christian doctrine is meant to come from and fit with all the Bible, instead of us trying to make the Bible fit with our doctrine. And all these verses do not fit with what you’re saying.
You said “proponents of your view”… you mean, like just taking the Bible as it says? How much more explanation does “all men” need to have? What about the “whosoever” of John 3:16? “Whosoever believeth”… the gospel is for whosoever. What does whosoever mean? Well it means “any one; any person whatever”.
You said Jesus Christ did not die for all of humanity … yet the Bible says in Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” Every man sounds like all of humanity to me.
Getting saved was my decision. I decided to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. But what preceded that was the moving of the Holy Spirit upon the gospel of Jesus Christ which brought conviction into my heart. At that point I could accept or reject him, but I accepted him. So my salvation is based on a conscious decision to believe in response to God’s grace, whereas you haven’t even believed, you’re a Christian because you’re forced to by God, I’m a Christian because I want to be. I know which will hold up better at judgment day.
As for all this “out of context” stuff, I’m not out of context, just you are out of context, you’re so honed in on a twisted idea of election that you cant read or accept the Bible for simply what it says… a child could tell you easily what “all men” and “every man” and “whosoever” means. Hopefully the simplicity of Christ finds its way to your heart one day.
For future reference, when people like you come on here to project your special doctrine, to the neutral reader it sounds absurd and it’s a very bad witness. People reading see that even professing Christians can’t get along. But I guess you don’t care what others think seeing squabbling, because God’s already predestined who will and won’t be saved and they can’t do anything about it. Heaps of readers heading for hell and it’s just bad luck, God created you to send you there. Nope, Jesus didn’t die for you, he only died for people who won God’s lottery. Please…
Well Joseph, you said it all with your statement that “getting saved was MY decision.” That is your whole doctrine right there in a nutshell. You have something to be quite proud of, don’t you?-You got yourself saved! You said so yourself. But God isn’t convinced, nor can he or will he accept you on that basis. Sadly, you are trying to skirt around the cross and God’s grace and trying to climb up some other way.
What I have been painfully trying to make clear throughout this whole entire thread is the Bible truth that salvation is of God-ALL of it, even the belief-Ephesians 2:8-9, Phillipians 1:29. Salvation is entirely by grace and entirely of God. It is not a potential nor is it an offer to all of mankind; nor is it based on man’s decision or will-John 1:13 alone proves that, but Joseph won’t accept the plain word of God. Salvation is actual, accomplished and finished for all of God’s elect-a done deal-and all of it is simply bestowed upon them by grace alone. Belief is evidence of election to salvation, not the cause of it-Acts 13:48. That is the Bible truth, and I have given scripture after scripture after scripture to prove it. By the way, I explained Hebrews 2:9 in my last post-did you not see that Joseph? Anyway, moving on…The reason I have done this and taken the aggressive stance that I have taken here is because of the seriousness of the issue at hand, and that is: What is the gospel? What is Bible salvation? God thought this issue to be so serious that he placed a curse on anyone who preaches any other gospel than his true one as preached by Paul-Galatians 1:8-9, and Paul contended ferociously for it against the Judaizers-Acts 15:1-2, Galatians 2:4-5, and he felt it necessary to do so and to contend aggressively regarding this issue. I am simply doing the same thing. Another reason for my aggressive stance here is that you are teaching people publicly something that is not the truth-it is another gospel and not the gospel of scripture. I do not fault you for not understanding the truth but because you keep on claiming and insisting that you do. Jesus said the same thing to the Pharisees-If ye were blind ye should have no sin. But now ye say we see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41 I also wanted to see if maybe you might just be willing to listen, as I said earlier, but alas, the outcome has been exactly what I figured it would be. So then according to your view you can say “I’m going to heaven because I chose Christ. I’m going to heaven because of what I did”. Good luck with that on judgment day. You said, quote-“my salvation is based on a conscious decision to believe.” Well, MY salvation is based on Jesus Christ and him crucified, plus nothing. God the Father predestinated me, God the Son justified me, and God the Holy Spirit intervened in my life as I was merrily going on in my sinful way and regenerated me and called me unto the fellowship of his Son. He did it ALL and gets ALL the glory as he should. I did NOTHING to contribute to my salvation, absolutely NOTHING. I made no “decision”-God did not leave it up to me, because if he had then I would have most certainly rejected him and said no, which all people will do if it is left up to them-see again John 3:19-20. God simply intervened and bestowed life upon me by his grace, and then began to open my understanding about what happened and what the Lord Jesus accomplished on my behalf. I have NOTHING to boast about. I contributed NOTHING. Your view has man contributing his two-cent “decision” to his salvation, thus saving himself and taking the credit for it, because as I said, your view makes the entirety of salvation depend on what man does instead of what GOD HAS DONE. Good luck with that when you stand before God someday-you will not be able to argue or uphold your case with HIM. You just cannot see that you are trying to save yourself. You have put your faith in your decision instead of in Christ.
Here is some more evidence from scripture which you will most certainly reject, but I will simply state it for the record. If salvation is for every human being then why did Peter say in Acts 2:39 that the promise is for AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL? That limits it to certain people. Why does it say in Acts 2:47 that the Lord added daily to the church SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED? Same thing-limited to certain people. Did Paul make a “decision” for Christ on the Damascus road on his way to arrest more Christians (Acts 9:1-8, 22:5-15, 26:10-18)? Nope. Did Lydia make a decision in Acts 16:14?-WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. Her conversion was of God, not of her own “free will.” If salvation is by the will of man, then why does Psalm 65:4 say Blessed (is the man whom) THOU CHOOSEST, and CAUSEST TO APPROACH (unto thee)? If salvation is by one’s personal decision, then why is it stated in Acts 11:18 that God also hath to the Gentiles GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE? If God wills that every human being be saved then why does it say that false teachers are MADE TO BE TAKEN AND DESTROYED-2 Peter 2:12? Why does Jude also describe them as ungodly men WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION? If Paul’s mission was to all mankind then why did he say Therefore I endure all things FOR THE ELECT’S SAKES, that THEY may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory-2 Timothy 2:10? If God wills every human being to be saved, then why does Isaiah 44:18 say of idol-worshipping heathens that they have not known nor understood, for HE HATH SHUT THEIR EYES, THAT THEY CANNOT SEE, AND THEIR HEARTS, THAT THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND? If God wills that every human being be saved then why did he deal almost exclusively with ONE NATION only-Israel-out of all the nations of the earth for 2000 years from Abraham to Christ? Why did he reveal himself and commit his oracles to that one nation only? What about all of those Gentiles that he did not reveal himself to or send missionaries to? If God loves everyone and wills that everyone be saved then why are we told in Mark 4:11-12 that unto the disciples only was it GIVEN to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables, THAT seeing they may see, and NOT perceive, and hearing they may hear, and NOT understand, LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM. oops-you missed that one, Joseph. God WITHHOLDS SALVATION from certain people-that’s what the text plainly says. Same thing in John 12:39-40: THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again, HE HATH BLINDED THEIR EYES, AND HARDENED THEIR HEART, THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE WITH (their) EYES, NOR UNDERSTAND WITH (their) HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM. oops-you missed that one too, Joseph. Plain statements showing that God does not will that all men be saved. That’s what they clearly say. If God wills all Israel to be saved, then why does the scripture say that only a remnant ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE shall be saved-Romans 11:5? The burden of proof is on you, Joseph, because the scriptures themselves TESTIFY AGAINST YOU-and your free will God-loves-everybody doctrine does not stand up under the plain testimony of scripture.
I have buried you alive with scripture after scripture after scripture throughout this entire thread-proof after proof after proof straight from the word of God-and you keep on rejecting what the scripture plainly says. If these verses that I give mean what they say (and they do) then the all men and whosoever passages CANNOT and DO NOT mean what YOU THINK they mean, because the verses I keep giving you are as clear as the clear blue sky, and God does not contradict himself. It is your doctrine that creates nothing but contradictions to the plain testimony of scripture. I could go on and on and on burying you with more and more and more scriptures yet, but the case has clearly been made, and made abundantly-it’s game over-and the truth is that you simply are not willing to accept what the words of God say, because they destroy your precious free will “God-loves-everyone-Christ-died-for-everyone-(but actually saved no one)-I-can-get-me-saved-by-my-decision” doctrine which contradicts the word of God and which you are absolutely determined to defend to the death. So, ok-if that’s what you want to keep on doing, then like I said, good luck with that on judgment day. Try to make your case before Almighty God someday and see how that goes. Try telling the Lord that he should let into heaven because of what YOU did. The truth here is that you simply hate God’s truth, as clearly shown by your last paragraph above.
So, like I said earlier, there is nowhere else to go with this thread-nothing to be gained, and no point in continuing it, because you just refuse to listen to the plain word of God. The only thing left for me to do is shake off the dust of my feet against you and move on.
Cmon buddy, I said more than just that “getting saved was my decision”. For someone talking about “context” why are you taking what I said out of context? Of course the Bible teaches the moving of the Holy Spirit is required for salvation. Unlike you, I don’t have to have one or the other with my doctrine. I don’t need to cut myself off from part of the Bible to make the other part work. Truth is always in balance. But your unequal scales of election and sovereign grace have tipped you into heresy. You’re claiming Jesus Christ did not die for everyone, which the Bible clearly teaches he did, the “all men” “every man” and “whosoever”.
People’s failures to get saved is not because God doesn’t want them to believe in his Son whom he sent… remembering he sent Jesus Christ to seek and save the lost. He saved lost people and sinners. And their belief and ours is a critical part of receiving the salvation that is freely given to us. When people go to hell it’s because of their failure to believe when given light and grace and truth to do so. It’s not they couldn’t believe, it’s they could but did not.
God could not righteously send you to hell if you were a robot preprogrammed to destruction. Remember, God created man in his image originally, he created man to bless man, and because the tabernacle of God is with men. God doesn’t want to send anyone to hell. Yes God “could” do theoretically do whatever he wants, but he doesn’t do a lot of things, and cannot do some things also. For instance, he cannot lie. For instance, he does not send people to hell who believed in his Son.
You do not have a handle on predestination. Predestination isn’t God saying you cannot get saved. From Ephesians 1 we know that God before he created the world appointed Jesus Christ as the Saviour and who’s sacrifice people would be saved upon. A decision to reject Jesus Christ is predestined to hell. Yes, there are people predestined to hell who will go there… not because God created them to go to hell, but because he has predestined their rejection of Christ to hell. God knows what’s going to happen, it doesn’t mean he makes things happen. For instance with Cain, he said to Cain “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?” Cain could have done well, but he chose not to. It’s not logical for God knowing he’s made it impossible for Cain to do well to ask him why he’s not doing well.
What about hell, that was made for the devil and his angels, not for mankind? It was not even God’s intention to send man there. Hell wasn’t made for man. And so… where does that leave your election theory? And you claim I can’t address text, but I mentioned Nineveh, and you said nothing although maybe I missed it. The repentance and salvation of Nineveh rubbishes your whole election theory. And even the salvation of all these heathen in the Bible who weren’t of Israel, who didn’t even have the covenants of promise or weren’t “elect”… yet they got saved. They weren’t entitled to salvation because they weren’t in the “elect” nation, and yet God saved them while many of the “elect” Jews went to hell.
You were incredibly dishonest about my claim. Nowhere have I or do I ever claim that I have contributed to my salvation. I didn’t die on the cross. I didn’t save me. I only contributed sin. Jesus saved me because I believed on him to. Salvation isn’t forced on people, it is received by faith. God and Moses didn’t force people to look at the serpent on the pole in the wilderness, they could look and live, or not. It was their choice. That’s part of being originally made in God’s image, the ability to function as Jesus said “ye are gods”. We can make our decisions because God has created us to. His sovereignty does not violate our volition. And choosing to love someone is far greater than being forced to love someone.
I’m saved by God’s grace through faith. See, his grace, my faith. If we don’t have faith, it is impossible to please God. I never said I had, and of course I haven’t contributed to my salvation, I just believe in Jesus Christ who has provided salvation for me. He provided the way, and I believed in the way. He gave me light, and I believed in the light “While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.” The only thing you’ve proved “using scripture” is how much you do not know it.
May God have mercy on your soul, Joseph
Not sure why you would say that seeing as
a) God has already had mercy on my soul in saving me
b) according to your election theory it’s already been decided whether he will have mercy or not and I can’t do anything about it nor can you change it. Like according to your belief system God isn’t going to change his mind and have mercy just because you say it.
c) Why would you ever have commented on here seeing as if everything is unconditionally elected, and if I haven’t been elected to believe what you believe, why bother arguing and belaboring your point of view. If God hasn’t elected me what can I do about it? Even if I agreed with you I cant believe it because God wouldn’t let me.
The very point of having this dialogue and you trying to convince me proves that you in practice don’t even really believe what you believe. Because you’re arguing to try to change me. But if your election theory was really real, you could not change me. So why are you trying to?
You argued your point because you think you can change someone’s views, meaning they’re not elected into a certain mindset, they can be “converted”. That’s why we try to win converts to Jesus Christ by telling them the gospel, or in your case, win converts to your Calvinistic point of view.
Salvation is “conversion”, if you look up what “converted” means “to change from one state to another”. When the gospel converts us, it changes us from unsaved to saved, unregenerate to born again. In conversion, you literally go from one state to another, it’s a kingdom change, so your style election is impossible. Before you’re saved you’re going to hell, after salvation you’re going to heaven. Your election theory doesn’t work because you’re saying that even in our sins and unbelief and unrepentant state… we’re going to heaven because we’re elected to go there.
Thanks Joseph, I think you rebuffed the predestined elect arguments very well.
Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
John 11:25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
Acts 15:11 “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
And sure, we cannot get in by our own righteousness (“works”), but it does not mean God reneges our free will of accepting Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace we are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
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Thanks for the comment Andrew, that’s right, it’s so important to rightly divide the word of truth, because we have a Saviour who tasted death for every man. That’s why its the gospel, good, better and best news!